Best CFB/CBB HC combo?

[WANG]

Mar 3, 2014 20:44:56 GMT -5 victor2111 said:

There was good talent left when Meyer got here and he has brought in 3 of his top 5 classes. The B10 is not the strongest conferences. So I'm not giving him excuse for this year.

If we have 0 B10 Titles & 0 BCS Bowl wins after 3 years, that is a disappointing start to the era. No excuse about it.

I am not saying the team is VOID of talent, I am saying that he is breaking in a LOT of new starters, and that is tough for any team.

And besides that, the starters LEFT on D (outside of the dline, which should just be plain nasty) weren't exactly studs last year.

Grant and Perry at LB didn't exactly impress last year, so unless they improve by leaps and bounds the LB corp will be worse (due to the loss of Shazier) than it was last year. Considering how mediocore they were this is not good.

I am okay with Grant at CB, but the thought of Reeves as a starter makes my stomach turn.

So, the secondary, which got TORCHED last year, is replacing all but one starter, and the LB corp which also got burned in pass coverage is losing it's only capable player...yippee!

On top of that, the strength of the offense last year (the run game) is losing it's OL and beast of an RB. Replacing 4 OL is never an easy task.

Expectating them to replicate the success in years 1 and 2 of Meyer simply because Meyer has been here 3 years isn't fair. Meyer could have been here a DECADE and replacing everything he has to replace this year could make for a difficult season.

[victor2111]

Then Meyer is not a elite coach.

EVERYBODY goes through this. Tressel loss a lot of great players each year, but still delivered B10 10 Titles and BCS Bowl wins.

Now, Meyer can't? We shouldn't expect Meyer to win a Big 10 title till year 4? Come on bro. Everyone says Meyer is a top 2 coach, better than Tressel, and the best tOSU has. If I can't expect AT LEAST a Big 10 title in 3 years, then wtf is tOSU paying him and the assistant coaches for?

Let me see:
- He brings in better classes/talent
- He gets to pay his assistant coaches more money

But lets give him excuse that he can do worse than Tressel. Sorry, not happening.


After th 2005 seasons, Ohio State lost its 3 starting LB(2 first rounders), 2 best OL(Mangold(1st), Sims(4th), both starting safeties(Salley(4th), Whinter(1st), best WRHolmes(1st), #1CB Youtboty(3rd). They lost 5 guys that were drafted in the first round, 2 more in 3rd, and 2 more in 4th. Also lost its starting TE from the team and 2 of their starting DL from the team.

What did the 2006 team do? Oh I don;t know, only go 12-0 and play in the NC game after losing all that ELITE talent(More than Meyer is losing).


Happens in CFB all the time. You lose players, but players replace them. That is what make programs ELITE. Meyer is a ELITE coach, no excuse for losing players. That is excuses MSU teams use.


We can talk about the 2007 Buckeye team the year after that one. After going 12-0 regular season, losing NCG, that Buckeye team lost
- Troy Smith QB, heisman
- Pittman starting RB
- Top 3 WR, and 2 first rounders, Ginn, Gonzo, Hall
- 3 starting OL - Datish, Downing, Schafer
- 3 starting DL - Richardson, Patterson, Pitcock
- 1 starting CB - Smith


After losing ALL That, the 2007 team still WON THE BIG 10 AND ONCE AGAIN PLAYED IN THE NCG!


Point being, have lost a lot more than we're losing this past year, and have done better.

[victor2111]

And I'm not trying to attack your point, Wang. But here is mine:

During Tressel era, he would reload every year, have his team in the NC race again, and win Big 10 titles/BCS games for the most part. You had a lot of fans say "This is Ohio State. Anyone can do that. We can do better. If we had a better coach we would do better"

Ohio State gets Meyer. Meyer is considered a top 2 coach in CFB. Meyer is great.

So you're telling me, if after 3 years at Ohio State, Meyer has "0" Big 10 Titles & "0" BCS Bowl wins, I should give him a excuse, and say, well he did lose some players and had to replace them, we need to give him a break.


Just can't happen. It might not be "fair" but this is Ohio State and people expect elite. If you can't win a Big 10 title in the weak B10, that is not "elite". All I'm saying.


And Yes I think Meyer has done a great job here but he still has a lot more to do. Lets not act like Meyer took over a bad program with no talent. He was left a lot of talent(One of the best QB in history, Hyde, Shazier, Roby, OL, etc). Ohio State had more talent than any other B10 team when he took over, so there is no excuses for him. Time for Ohio State to win again this year is all I'm saying.

[WANG]

Don't worry HBM, in my opinion we are just having a fun debate on the topic, I am not taking anything you are saying as an attack. If we can't discuss sports topics without feeling personally offended, then I wouldn't want to post here

I understand what you are saying, but we aren't comparing apples to apples.

First off, Tress wasn't on scholarship reduction. 3 may not sound like a lot, but it takes it's toll.

Secondly, Tress never dealt with the huge breath of transfers that Meyer has. Meyer ended the 2013 season with 55 scholarship players. FIFTY-FREAKING-FIVE! That is absurd.

This means that while Tress had JRs and SRs ready to step in and fill the void left by his graduating players, Meyer is left with underclassmen who are woefully unexperienced.

Sure, these kids could step up and amaze us, but that is hoping for a whole heckuvalot.

And lastly, blaming Meyer because in his 3rd year he might not bring home a B1G championship or BCS bowl is a fairly misguided statement, as his first season he wasn't ELIGIBLE to win either of those, and he got the the B1G CCG and a BCS bowl in season two.

[angrybaldman]

Mar 4, 2014 10:40:40 GMT -5 WANG said:

Don't worry HBM, in my opinion we are just having a fun debate on the topic, I am not taking anything you are saying as an attack. If we can't discuss sports topics without feeling personally offended, then I wouldn't want to post here

I understand what you are saying, but we aren't comparing apples to apples.

First off, Tress wasn't on scholarship reduction. 3 may not sound like a lot, but it takes it's toll.

Secondly, Tress never dealt with the huge breath of transfers that Meyer has. Meyer ended the 2013 season with 55 scholarship players. FIFTY-FREAKING-FIVE! That is absurd.

This means that while Tress had JRs and SRs ready to step in and fill the void left by his graduating players, Meyer is left with underclassmen who are woefully unexperienced.

Sure, these kids could step up and amaze us, but that is hoping for a whole heckuvalot.

And lastly, blaming Meyer because in his 3rd year he might not bring home a B1G championship or BCS bowl is a fairly misguided statement, as his first season he wasn't ELIGIBLE to win either of those, and he got the the B1G CCG and a BCS bowl in season two.

Tress had a national championship by now. Just sayin....

[angrybaldman]

On a more serious note, if Meyer's recruits are so much better than Tress' then the scholarship reduction is really a wash.

[victor2111]

Mar 4, 2014 10:40:40 GMT -5 WANG said:

Don't worry HBM, in my opinion we are just having a fun debate on the topic, I am not taking anything you are saying as an attack. If we can't discuss sports topics without feeling personally offended, then I wouldn't want to post here

I understand what you are saying, but we aren't comparing apples to apples.

First off, Tress wasn't on scholarship reduction. 3 may not sound like a lot, but it takes it's toll.

Secondly, Tress never dealt with the huge breath of transfers that Meyer has. Meyer ended the 2013 season with 55 scholarship players. FIFTY-FREAKING-FIVE! That is absurd.

This means that while Tress had JRs and SRs ready to step in and fill the void left by his graduating players, Meyer is left with underclassmen who are woefully unexperienced.

Sure, these kids could step up and amaze us, but that is hoping for a whole heckuvalot.

And lastly, blaming Meyer because in his 3rd year he might not bring home a B1G championship or BCS bowl is a fairly misguided statement, as his first season he wasn't ELIGIBLE to win either of those, and he got the the B1G CCG and a BCS bowl in season two.

Good to see you understand that. . I love debating but sometimes people think it is attack, when I'm never trying to do that.


Very good points by you all over.

As for the first year not being able to win it. I'm not punishing him there. I didn't expect him to. When hiring a head coach, I expect the first year to be a free year for them. The 2nd/3rd years are the big years for a head coach, that is when you want to see the success happening. And that is why a lot of times you a lot of head coaches win NC in their 2nd year.

So I'm judging Meyer on his 2nd/3rd year. Last year he played two top 15 teams, and got beat by both of them. His first year he played a bunch of non rank/bad teams and won. Good for him. Last year I would say Meyer had a C+ year at best. This year is much bigger year for him. Ohio State is not paying Meyer to just get us to B1G CCG/BCS Bowls. He is being PAID to win those games an bring another NC to Ohio State. We play in the Big 10, and we can all agree, the B10 is average BCS conference. No other team recruits like Ohio State, most teams don't pay their assistant coaches at Ohio State, Ohio STATE HAS THE MOST TALENTED TEAM IN THE B10 AGAIN, so if Meyer can't win a B10 with all that, then he is not as good as he was before.

Even WITH the scholarship reduction, everyone says Ohio State is the most talented team in the B10 top to bottom. Everyone says we have the best set of assistant coaches. Everyone says we are the best recruiting team in the B10. So with all of that, I expect to win the B10 like Tressel did. That is it. No excuses not to.

Now the scholarship reduction could hurt when we play more talented teams like Bama, FSU, etc.

[Deleted]

24-2 taking over a team in turmoil.
Nough said!

[angrybaldman]

Mar 4, 2014 18:24:40 GMT -5 @theref said:

24-2 taking over a team in turmoil.
Nough said!

So was Larry Coker.

[Deleted]

Mar 4, 2014 19:39:51 GMT -5 angrybaldman said:

Mar 4, 2014 18:24:40 GMT -5 @theref said:

24-2 taking over a team in turmoil.
Nough said!

So was Larry Coker.

Actually he was 23-1 with a nc

His fist 4 years he was 42-6 / 3 BE titles and a nc.

Pretty elite in my book. Not sure I understand the point. Does that somehow lessen what Meyer has accomplished so far

[WANG]

Mar 4, 2014 13:03:39 GMT -5 victor2111 said:

Good to see you understand that. . I love debating but sometimes people think it is attack, when I'm never trying to do that.


Very good points by you all over.

As for the first year not being able to win it. I'm not punishing him there. I didn't expect him to. When hiring a head coach, I expect the first year to be a free year for them. The 2nd/3rd years are the big years for a head coach, that is when you want to see the success happening. And that is why a lot of times you a lot of head coaches win NC in their 2nd year.

So I'm judging Meyer on his 2nd/3rd year. Last year he played two top 15 teams, and got beat by both of them. His first year he played a bunch of non rank/bad teams and won. Good for him. Last year I would say Meyer had a C+ year at best. This year is much bigger year for him. Ohio State is not paying Meyer to just get us to B1G CCG/BCS Bowls. He is being PAID to win those games an bring another NC to Ohio State. We play in the Big 10, and we can all agree, the B10 is average BCS conference. No other team recruits like Ohio State, most teams don't pay their assistant coaches at Ohio State, Ohio STATE HAS THE MOST TALENTED TEAM IN THE B10 AGAIN, so if Meyer can't win a B10 with all that, then he is not as good as he was before.

Even WITH the scholarship reduction, everyone says Ohio State is the most talented team in the B10 top to bottom. Everyone says we have the best set of assistant coaches. Everyone says we are the best recruiting team in the B10. So with all of that, I expect to win the B10 like Tressel did. That is it. No excuses not to.

Now the scholarship reduction could hurt when we play more talented teams like Bama, FSU, etc.

I understand, but you said "it would be 3 years without a B1G CC or BCS win" and that isn't a fair statement. He couldn't PLAY in a CCG or bowl game his first year, so that changes things.

It might be semantics, but your phrasing indicates that he is 0-3, which isn't correct, it's more like 0-2 (if OSU fails this year). If your statement is meant as "By year 3, Meyer should have all the pieces in place necessary to bring home at LEAST a B1GCCG and BCS win", then that would be more accurate.

I agree that OSU has the most talent in the B1G, but it's relatively new, undeveloped talent. UK has the most talent almost every year in , but they are all new kids and so they struggle often times. And it isn't JUST the scholarship reduction, it's the massive amount of transfers and other situations that lead to a depleted team, and that hurt a LOT last year. They were playing with 30 less available players than Clemson in their BCS game last year, and STILL almost pulled off the win.

So realistically, let's look at what Meyer has done in his first two seasons:

- Took a 6-7 team (with basically all the same players) and made them a 12-0 team, was ineligible for post season play.

- Took an undefeated team losing a TON of talent off of a mediocore D, ran the table, but lost to a VERY good MSU team, and then limped into a BCS game and almost came away with the victory.

Now he has to take an offense that is essentially stripped of all of it's experience outside of the QB position and a D that is replacing an entire (albeit terrible) secondary, and he is doing it with inexperienced players because over the course of 4 seasons he has lost 24 players to transfers and other situations.

Expecting him to just suck it up and win isn't really fair.

[Deleted]

Meyer started off 24-0. 6-0 against scUM, wisco and penn state. Wasn't eligible his first year to win anything despite going undefeated when noone expected him to, so Vics argument about 3 years with nothing is moot.

[victor2111]

Michigan sucks. Wisconsin sucks. Penn State sucks.

A LOT OF TEAMS WOULD GO 6-0 against them the past 2 years.

PSU is 15-11 the past two years
Michigan is 15-11 the past two years
Wisconsin is 17-10 the two years

Wow, some great teams there folks! Three teams that have 0 Bowl wins the past two years also!

THEY SUCK! That is their record WITH WEAK OOC and playing in the WEAK BIG 10. I hope he could beat their sorry asses.

Meyer has done a very good job but look at the big picture. What is Meyer best win at Ohio State, best team he has beat in the two years he was here? He is 0-2 vs good teams.

So if by year 3 in the program, he hasn't won a Big 10 title, with the best team, then yes he is not doing his job.



If you're happy with Ohio State beating crappy teams but losing to good teams, then fine. But I expect Ohio State to be a top 5 team, win Big 10 almost every year, play in the biggest bowl games, and win most of them. That is the standard that was set at Ohio State. So if by year 3 in the program, Meyer has done none of that, how is that good?


Common man on 97.1 the fan said it best. The big 10 sucks because the programs don't expect or push themselves to higher standards. In the SEC, programs are EXPECTED TO win and compete for it all, go for the best coaches. Big 10 programs? Never. Hire average coaches. They played a piece yesterday on Illinois. Illinois HC said the school would be happy if he gets to 6 wins this year and just plays in a Bowl game. That is the standard, just get 6wins and play in a bowl game. The Big 10 sucks. We all talk about it all the time how it is not good(teddy you being one of them), but now we're going to give Meyer a pass if he can't win it by year 3 in the program? This is not the 90s anymore folks. These teams are not good. The expectations at Ohio State shouldn't just be "Beat Michigan every year". Because if that is the standard, Ohio State standards are not at the elite level anymore. Michigan is not elite no more.

[victor2111]

And on the 55 players at the end of the year

- One do you think every team has 85 healthy players at the end of the year? Ohio State is the only one that has injuries, guys leave, players redshirt, etc?

- Two, part of that problem was Meyer himself. He said he doesn't redshirt players but last year he redshirted 19 players. So the reason he had 55players was because he chose to. He redshirted Michael Thomas, Brionte Dunn, all the freshman. This is coming from the guy that says "Players don't redshirt here". So I'm not giving him pass for that, he is the one that decided not to use 19 of the players he could have.

- Three. How many teams play 55 players in one game? And I mean big game? Not many. I mean maybe 35-45 guys get major time in big games? That number might even be too high. Now having more than 55 is great for depth, injuries, replacing players who leave, etc. And Meyer had that, but he decided to redshirt most of it.

[victor2111]

And stop with the 6-7 BS. That team was way more talented. Oh wait, starting a true freshman at QB. Oh wait, starting a rookie HC that is not a HC. Oh wait, no leadership. Oh wait, best players suspended off team. LOL OH wait, Have FIckell running the offense now. LOL.

Look what happen to Arkansas when their HC had to leave a couple years ago before the season started, just like tOSU did, and was expected to compete to win the SEC. I believe they had a losing record that year also.

EDIT: Just looked it up, they went 4-8 with John L Smith(a real former HC) as their HC that year. That is with a Senior QB. The year before they went 11-2 and was expected to do the same.


Here is what people said before Meyer first year:
"I expect this to be a team that almost runs the table, or comes close to running the table," Pollack said. "On paper, they're the most talented team in the Big Ten."

ESPN.


That is what everyone was saying because it was true. With any legit HC, Ohio State would have won at least 10 games that year. Meyer did a great job. Now he just needs to win the big games here and I expect him to do it, this year. I expect Ohio State to win the B10 and be in playoff 4.